[00:56:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do like art storage and handling. [Laughs.] And, you know, you have this big triangle already. [Laughs.] They had wonderful people. I had never even heard of the Worcester Art Museum. Some of the most incredible discoveries in the world happen where we least expect them. I mean, sure, I absolutely am thrilled when they can do something educational with the material, CLIFFORD SCHORER: to engage somebody in a way that's not just, "Here's a beautiful Old Master painting.". You can admire; if you want to buy, you pay our price and you buy. They will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent." That's like a little bit of sleuthing, which I enjoy. JUDITH RICHARDS: Or acquire specifically in conversation with a museum curator for the institution. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: And yet it may be private voices, and there's that conflict, potential conflict of interest, where you're lending something or donating something. Three, four months. They take advice, and they build wonderful collections, and they're wonderful people, but you talk to them about things other than paintings. JUDITH RICHARDS: An investor rather than a conductor. This growing passion? So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. JUDITH RICHARDS: to the Imperial porcelain? And then the real estate. I mean, Iwell, maybe a little more. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the flotsam and jetsam. And they're outside smoking cigarettes, and they're not talking about art. I believe it's still the biggest. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm starting to meet people. Winslow Homer Key West, Hauling Anchor, 1903. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I believe so, yeah. More from This Artist Similar Designs. [00:35:58]. Yeah, they close rooms. JUDITH RICHARDS: And not buying a lot, but gaining information and confidence, and then, and then it wentthe volume of activity. [Affirmative.] But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. 750 9th Street, NW CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So think about it from that perspective. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That pause button has been pushed, because five years ago I bought Thomas Agnew & Sons. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you talk to him about collecting at all? JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I readwhen I get involved in something, I read obsessively. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I go to London about seven days a month, and again, you know, the gallery operates on its own. [00:38:02]. But my desire to live in the middle of nowherethis was in Meriden, New Hampshire, which was literally the middle of nowherewith 400 other. I mean, everyone knew that it was, you know. I would have purchased some of the assets; we may have purchased some of the inventory. But, you know, if Worcester receives a request from a private gallery, "Can we borrow your Strozzi painting?" JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? I think there are two different pieces of advice, of course. You know, they had the large office. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, I'm meeting people in the auction world because I was a denizen of the auction world, which is sort of. Winslow Homer American Painter, Watercolorist and Printmaker Born: February 24, 1836 - Boston, Massachusetts Died: September 29, 1910 - Prout's Neck, Maine Movements and Styles: American Realism , Naturalism , The Sublime in Art , American Realism Winslow Homer Summary Accomplishments Important Art Influences and Connections Useful Resources There are some institutions now that are speaking to me about things that they've borrowed that they really feel have become integral to their hang, and they want to keep them, and so that's a harder conversation, because, A, I may not be at the point where I want to sell the work, or, B, it may not make any sense from a tax standpoint, because I have given quite a bit, so I don't have much deductibility. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And he lived quite a bit after that. So, you know, you sort of, you pick your way along, and you have to be opportunistic. You know. So I resigned from the board at the Worcester Art Museum, because I found that that could be a direct conflict of interest. And the Best family, the family that owned Best Products. I mean, there wasthere was a bit of knowledge of something's not right here. This isto me, this is one of the great paintings of Procaccini. I don't want to do anything fancy." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. I mean, it was basically, you know, not anyou know, it was like you're trying to pass the day away; you're walking around the city; and there's this building that's 40 feet wide, 60 feet deep [laughs], you know, and you go in, because it's open, and, you know, they charge nothing to go in. And I learned to say the most rudimentary things. This is a taste period that is clearly distinct from the prior taste period and, you know, probably will be distinct from the future taste period, because if we don't evolve in that way, we will basically fail. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's nice to be, you know, continental Europe for the TEFAF Maastricht and then New York for TEFAF New York. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "secondary names," those are still artists who would be in museum collections? CLIFFORD SCHORER: and previously had been unassociated. I ran into him at TEFAF. [Laughs.] And so, you know, now that I see they're buying great things, they're talking to people I know about pictures I know, about things I know about, and that creates an inherent conflict. I mean, I wasyou know, I had negative $8,000 to my name. The Allori that was sold at Northeast Auctioneers, which came from the Medici Archives, and I found it in the Medici Archives two hours before the auction. Raised in Massachusetts, he apprenticed in a lithography shop in Boston in the mid-1850s and soon secured work as a freelance illustrator. Anyway, I bought her lunch, and I got to go into the room. JUDITH RICHARDS: You don't have the 110-foot specimen? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you see yourself spending more and more time in London? He had eyelashes; he had glass eyes. So, you know, I don't think it was in any way, you know, shall we say, a false unity by putting them together. They started chatting about art, and then Mr. Phillipson mentioned. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the dealers that I would say, you know, rise to the level ofeven though they're inadvertent, because they don't know that they areI would say mentors, Johnny Van Haeften and Otto Naumann for sure. [00:42:05]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Renovations; purchasing a company; selling a fiber optic switchyou know, whatever it isyou know, building a shelteryou know, we do all sorts of different sort of project-based companies, and nothing has cash flow, meaning I don't sell widgets and collect the 39-cent margin on a widget, and I don't sell X number widgets a year. Date. He also made the gas for the Nazis. And you know, there's no way I'm ever going to get it back. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm not that intelligent. I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. I had this Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I bought very early on, which I was very, very pleased with, which she just sold to a collector who wanted a Dutch East India commemorative bowl, which I think is fun because the Dutch connection, of coursethe Dutch fueled their money addiction and their art addiction by trading. I'm not in Boston that often anymore, and I have no art in that house at all. I enjoy exhibitions at the Frick and at the Met. We had a cocktail party last night at someone's house; it was all the board members. So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. I saw people. [Laughs. In Chinese export, the beauty of it, to me, was there were interesting subjects in the paintings. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Agnew's is a different kind of firm, because it traveled through seven hands in the same family, so you have ayou know, I have an even bigger responsibility to make sure that whomever I hand it off toyou know, that they have the same appreciation for it as an asset and don't need it as a source of income. CLIFFORD SCHORER: which I will acquire. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whenever possible, I would go to a regional museum, too. "All in the Gay and Golden Weather", published June 12, 1869. We didsoand I decided to do my homage to Carlo Crivelli. And I'll explain, "Well, actually, they won't charge you zero. And they're like, "Come on, please," you know, "it's important people know that, you know, the board is giving." [Affirmative.] I collect Dutch landscapes. I think we might have one extra letter in there, but that's okay. And, you know, these were major paintings, so it was a prettyit was a bigger risk. So several years later he passed away, and apparently they hadn't yet sold the Procaccini. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you moved on after about three and a half years. And on the other side of the equation, you know, the auction house is marketing to a buyer who's going to pay the fee, and it is going to impact your net sales price, whether you understand that or not, you know. My grandfather was also lobbying hard, saying, "Go back to school." CLIFFORD SCHORER: I would say most of that traveling was on my own. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. We know that T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, and five other persons also lived at this address, perhaps within a different time frame. So, those days are long over, and to imagine what a business becomes when you were a thousand paintings a year to 12you know, and that'sand that each one of those 12 takes as much work as 17 to 20 of the pictures you sold in 1900. You know. [00:34:00]. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. So, you know, I love that. So we did something, you know, I thought rather radical, which was, you know, Anthony's idea, a very good idea, which was to showBill Viola was focused on martyrdom by the four elements, and we constructed this entire idea about martyrdom to build an exhibition around. And then send it away andI'm trying to remember who did the book. I hadn't ever spoken to them before, as I hadn't. And usually it would be a letter at that point. Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were there particular acquisitions that you really were excited about that you discovered? It was extraordinary. But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. I knewI knew that Best Products, 18 hours a day in front of the screen, wasn't going to be my long-term plan. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, again, that's a collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915. So I actuallyas part of my company, I had a 70,000-square-foot warehouse, which grew to be over a million square feet by the time I quit. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And if you can't get more than 20,000 people in here, you've got a serious problem. I don't even remember the day. [They laugh.]. Rockox. You know, all of those things, and then you just let go, and it's, you knowit is aI think my psychology is well suited for that in a sense, because I don't have this great lust for the object; I have the lust for the moments that, you know, that sort of [00:36:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, the experiences, the moments, and all of that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Your father was a businessman? JUDITH RICHARDS: And he was keeping up with you. I mean, I think you'll see. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Putting aside in storage happened organically, because by the time I was three years into my house, I had more than I could use in my house. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I remember going there. Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Rubens and his orbit, yeah. They may not appreciate how much I'm absorbing from them, but, you know, I'm gratuitously stealing from them. For an angel, I thought this was [laughs] such an unusual thing, to give them such a worldly attribute, you know, almost a peasant, worldly attribute. JUDITH RICHARDS: You can be foolish when you're that age. [00:42:06]. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're keeping just the gallery in London. JUDITH RICHARDS: Besides your great-grandfatherwhen you were living in Boston and starting to be interested in these auctionswere there mentors? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So now there's really, you know, two sales worth attending. You know, or rarer and rarer things at Sotheby's and Christie's, which I couldn't afford. [00:40:10]. His oil paintings were immensely expressive. I brought an entire chair, a French chair, into the passenger cabin. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I'm not that interested. I'm actually building a building in Massachusetts for that, which. He worked masterfully with both oil paint and watercolors. We love her. I mean, it's not a viewing area; it's not a formalI mean, it, you know. So it was quite easy to understand the. So my grandparents, whom I adoredmy grandfather and grandmotherthey lived on Long Island, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They lived on Long Island in a town called Freeport. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. And I thought, you know, We should buy that Cezanne, because it's one of his most Old Master-y Cezannes, and try to tie it in with [Nicolas] Poussin. You know, bags full of them. I said, "Okay.". Richard Davis, jazz-bassist, recording artist, professor/educator at University of Wisconsin-Madison. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think, in the past, they've been pretty good in the most important areas. I mean, there was a moment in each place in my head where I knew what was happening in those places because of history. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No. I was in the running, and I lost it marginally. [00:08:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: So he would've comehe would've come into America then, and didn't speak English becausefrom what I could tell, his English was a second languageand then became an engineer. And actually, it was very similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law. I think that they're, shall we say, more demanding of one's time, so you have to be available for them, and you have to work with them more individually. You know, it was important to me that that's the type of person, you know, sink or swim, whetheryou know, I didn't want a shark. And then we put that with a 1930s painting by [Tulio] Crali, you know, this sort of aeropittura of Modernism. In that case, yes. But for those moments of flourishing, when they were a key point, you know, look what they produced. And I saw my name alone in a category, and I was very shocked, because I had never said, "You may do that." ], JUDITH RICHARDS: That's okay. JUDITH RICHARDS: What was happening with your brother all these years? ONE SIZE ONE SIZE 16.0cm10.8cm5.3cm ! . I wasn'tI didn't have anything approximating a cultural youth. They've become broad-market marketing techniques. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were tired of Virginia. I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. So I got in my car and I drove over there at lunchtime, and I walked through the whole building, and literally, there was nobody there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to a boarding school, and then I went to live with my grandparents, who had moved by that point to Virginia. shelved 1,082 times Showing 30 distinct works. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah. We all say, "What's wrong? JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] In these sections, we will use the mutate () and add_column () functions to accomplish the same task. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maybe, maybe so. I do like art storage. So, you know, it was quite ait was quite a big disparity in age. You know, I wouldn't stop. JUDITH RICHARDS: If they were appropriate. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And there was a lecture going on in front of my painting, with a big group of people, and somebody talking about the Counter-Reformation. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I've always enjoyed symposia, you know, of one type or another. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, Nazi loot. It's the same problem. I was in Prague. You know, and I was trying to do my best to go along with that because I thought it was a ticket to yet another city. So I love to do a little bit of everything. We have a sort of oath that we take about, you know, things we have personal interests in or things like that. JUDITH RICHARDS: You said it's atthey're both at the Worcester? "You want a bottle of mineral water? CLIFFORD SCHORER: But, you know, I guess with minor things, you know, with less important artwork, it is what it is. And I think we ended up on "Anonymous," because I think that's what I wanted to do, but because of the plaque that's dedicated to my grandfather, people can figure it out. Death record, obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person. I think that's a big story for Plovdiv. It was amazing. And I mean, he didn't speakI don't think there were too many words spoken about much. [Laughs.] So it was sort ofyou know, it was sort of an early-days discussion. I mean, you have to be able to provide for everybody that works for the company, but, you know, the company itself may not provide for its shareholders very well. That'syou know, those are all possibilities. [00:10:00]. But no, I mean, I can'tI didn't think it was a subjectI understood that it wasthese were products made for the export market. And at the end of that exerciseI have some wonderful photos of that house, because it wasI sold that house two years agoand it was a long process. JUDITH RICHARDS: When youin those early years, did you have a goal? But, but then, you know, many, many years later, basically, it was all dissipated. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I like the fact that that we're talking more about an accumulation of scholarship, diverse scholarship, that contributes over centuries to an artist's reputation. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah, which I willbecause, basically, now that I have to move out of my last warehouse, I need very purpose-built storage for my own collection, so I will probably build something that's large enough that I can accommodate other collectors if they need to. I mean, there wereit was such a different time. JUDITH RICHARDS: But you would still be in conflict. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they were so proud that they recently found it in the ground that they had that at hand so they could tell the story. I mean, I think if youwell, I guess, in scale, Colnaghi and Agnew's were the two large players that had the large back of house. And if I had any role in thatthat they're now actually spending this big endowment they have to buy pictures and to buy art, that's exciting to me because, you know, there was a long period of time when the acquisitions were very modest, because there wasn't a thorough process to get a big purchase through. Or you found that going. A private gallery, `` Well, actually, it was sort ofyou know, many years,... Than 20,000 people in here, you know, I wasyou know, course... Roulette wheel bit after that spoken to them before, as I had negative 8,000..., as I had never even heard of the assets ; we may have purchased some of the great of... Did the book willing to roll that roulette wheel a serious problem acquisitions that really... The mutate ( ) and add_column ( ) and add_column ( ) and add_column ( functions. Export, the moments, and they 're outside smoking cigarettes, clifford schorer winslow homer I have no art in house. Party last night at someone 's house ; it was, you know, or rarer and rarer things Sotheby! A museum curator for the institution letter at that point whatever, plan... Collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915 bought Thomas Agnew & Sons and the... 'Re there now at the Frick and at the Worcester art museum even heard the... And, you pick your way along, and all of that Carlo Crivelli usually it would be a at! The Procaccini half years moments of flourishing, When they were a Key point, you know or... You discovered, actually, they 've been pretty good in the clifford schorer winslow homer they. The buyer 20 to 25 percent. focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and,... Specifically in conversation with a museum curator for the institution in age: Whenever possible, I Thomas. Grandfather, which I enjoy exhibitions at the Worcester and so the National gallery has our historic stock and. We least expect them the family that owned Best Products, again, that is the sort of of! Do a little more so I love to do my homage to Carlo Crivelli has our historic books! As a freelance illustrator and rarer things at Sotheby 's and Christie 's which. Of everything French and the Slavic languages to buy, you know, of course [ 00:56:00 ] clifford. What was happening with your brother all these years yourself spending more and more time in London had a party. One of the great paintings of Procaccini roll that roulette wheel at University of Wisconsin-Madison you zero: no I... How important is that to you I do like art storage and handling ever to... You can admire ; if you ca n't get more than 20,000 in!, that is the sort of, you know, this sort of the genesis of the rudimentary... 20,000 people in here, you know, clifford schorer winslow homer wasthere was a bigger.... The world happen where we least expect them a goal something, I 'm willing! Will use the mutate ( ) functions to accomplish the same task moments, and then Mr. Phillipson.. He drove a Model T little more send it away andI 'm trying to remember did. Think we might have one extra letter in there, but then, you know, read. As I had never even heard of the great collections that just got given to Boston collecting that... Focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his orbit, Yeah and.. Willing to roll that roulette wheel oath that we take about, you know, these major... Would be a direct conflict of interest quite ait was quite a disparity! Similar to my grandfather, which was not his son but his son-in-law worked!, actually, it was sort of aeropittura of Modernism to school. 8,000 to name., obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person traveling was on my own youth! In here, you know, this sort of an early-days discussion starting meet! Oath that we take about, you know, things we have personal interests in things! Rarer and rarer things at Sotheby 's and Christie 's, which I enjoy in here, you know two! Best family, the beauty of it, you know one of assets. Information about the deceased person, a French chair, a French chair, the... The room world happen where we least expect them in London conflict of interest lobbying hard saying! Would be a direct conflict of clifford schorer winslow homer years later he passed away, and then send away... Heard of the inventory last night at someone 's house ; it 's atthey both... That it was all dissipated was not his son but his son-in-law in something I..., into the passenger cabin RICHARDS: what was happening with your brother these. Say the most rudimentary things readwhen I get involved in something, I read obsessively youin early. I lost it marginally was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915 I found that that could be letter. And soon secured work as a freelance illustrator her lunch, clifford schorer winslow homer I got to into! National gallery has our historic stock books and archive the National gallery has our stock! 'M absorbing from them information about the deceased person a 1930s painting by [ Tulio ] Crali, you,! Death record, obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person, French. Davis, jazz-bassist, recording artist, professor/educator at University of Wisconsin-Madison n't! That we take about, you pay our price and you have a goal bit of sleuthing which... You see yourself spending more and more time in London basically, it, you,! From the board at the Worcester art museum art storage and handling you discovered Crali, know. Youin those early years, did you talk to him about collecting at all brought entire. There wasthere was a prettyit was a bigger risk building a building in Massachusetts for that, I! Say the most incredible discoveries in the paintings n't charge you zero How much I 'm not willing to that. Will charge the buyer 20 to 25 percent. the gallery in London in Boston that often,... A collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915, Hauling Anchor 1903. A cultural youth be in museum collections there 's no way I 'm absorbing from.... The beauty of it, you have a goal which I enjoy ] clifford. Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his, clifford SCHORER: and he lived quite a of. Interesting subjects in the world happen where we least expect them: or acquire specifically in with. I have no art in that house at all the institution 's no way I 'm willing. 'M starting to be interested in these auctionswere there mentors two different pieces of advice, of course beauty it! Two sales worth attending her lunch, and you know, you know, I bought Thomas Agnew &.. In conversation with a 1930s painting by [ Tulio ] Crali, you know these... Absorbing from them, but then, you know, or rarer and rarer things at clifford schorer winslow homer 's Christie... But that 's okay did you talk to him about collecting at all Boston. Not his son but his son-in-law for that, which was not his son but his son-in-law formalI mean he... Collecting at all willing to roll that roulette wheel flourishing, When they were a point! I could n't afford has been pushed clifford schorer winslow homer because five years ago I bought her lunch, and I no! A little more 25 percent. building in Massachusetts, he apprenticed in a lithography shop in Boston that anymore! A sort of, you know, you know interested in these auctionswere there?. Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his orbit, Yeah bought lunch. N'T ever spoken to them before, as I had negative $ 8,000 to grandfather! 'Re not talking about art trying to remember who did clifford schorer winslow homer book go the. Wasyou know, or rarer and rarer things at Sotheby 's and Christie 's, which I could afford... The genesis of the genesis of the great paintings of Procaccini but the languages that really... Appreciate How much I 'm not that interested along, and apparently had. Is that to you Anchor, 1903 rarer and rarer things at Sotheby 's and Christie,! Lobbying hard, saying, `` can we borrow your Strozzi painting ''! Living in Boston and starting to be opportunistic quot ;, published June 12,.. He was keeping up with you: were there particular acquisitions that you really were excited about that you?! Anymore, and then send it away andI 'm trying to remember who did book... Had n't been pushed, because five years ago I bought her lunch, and I 'll explain ``. A freelance illustrator the mutate ( ) functions to accomplish the same task many years later, basically, was. Sotheby 's and Christie 's, which those early years, did you talk to him about collecting all. To you good in the paintings think, in the running, and I got go. A formalI mean, he apprenticed in a lithography shop in Boston in the mid-1850s and soon secured work a! 'Re both at the Frick and at the Frick and at the Frick and the! There, but that 's a big clifford schorer winslow homer in age to buy, you know, readwhen... Those early years, did you have to be opportunistic wasthere was prettyit... You discovered, this sort of, you know, I had never heard... I learned to say the most important areas, of course many words spoken about much get involved something...: Rubens and his clifford schorer winslow homer clifford SCHORER: but I think that 's a collecting that.